Debate: The Place Of The Gospels In The Bible

The title of this debate might not be very clear at first because most of us, I think, know right were the Gospels are in our Bible. They are right after that page that says “The New Testament Of Jesus Christ.” That is where I believe they are supposed to be. They are part of the New Covenant Scriptures and, rightly, begin the New Testament record. Most of you reading this are probably thinking, “well where else would they go?” That will be the topic of discussion for this debate.

Let me set for the propositions for both sides and if I have made any mistakes in the way it is stated Mickey can correct it for us.

I affirm that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are New Testament books to be taught and included with the New Testament of Jesus Christ. Mickey Skidmore denies this.

Mickey Skidmore affirms that these are Old Testament books that apply exclusively to the dispensation of Moses. I deny this.

I deny that these books have ever been, or should now be, considered part of the Old Testament Cannon or Hebrew Bible. Mickey Skidmore affirms that biblical doctrine requires that these books be included in the Old Testament Cannon, not the New Testament.

Again, if I have made any mistakes in laying out the propositions Mickey is free to correct them. However, before we begin the discussion we will both agree to a set of propositions that will be affirmed and denied respectively and will not be altered throughout the course of this discussion. Of course, either party is free to abandon his affirmations at any time but the propositions will not be altered once we begin our discussion.

Mickey, please agree to or offer any amendments to the propositions in the comments section below.

Readers are free to ask questions or make comments throughout the course of this discussion as long as they pertain to the propositions or a specific argument being made.

Mickey, its all yours.

Comments

  1. Norm

    Read it and Weep MY DOCTRINE NOT MINE. JOHN 7:16 Deal with it Verses 2 9-11 Deal With it. Deal With Romans 3:19-21 There Goes Your Univiversal Doctrine Non Sense.

  2. I Meant Deal with John 7:16 Verses 2 John 9-11 Deal With it Norm get to it.

  3. Norm, I will only debate you in a Public Place, free from your false doctrine controls. I do not do youtube, that’s for kids, any place, any time in real time. Please post this so all can see.. Thanks Norm, PS.. Campbell and Stone play a huge roll is this, and so do the colleges, but I will leave those out. The New Testament are enough..

  4. Norm

    Even I know there are some similar moral commands in both covenants.If that is where You are going Your gonna get zapped Sir.

    You use the three witnesses in both covenants to prove Your foolish point. Hello Norm. Jesus was telling Jews under the Law how to settle there differences. The three witnesses are used in both covenants, but the way Jesus told Old Covenant Israel how to settle there arguments under the Law is not in force this side of the Cross, so Yes You better believe Mathew 18:17 is Old Testament, and Gods Old Testament Church. Acts 7:37-38 King James Version.I can play that silly game all day Norm Mathew 5:37 Verses James 5:12.Watch here closely folks how Norm builds His straw Man false case.His foolish well look at these similar commands Mick Wow Yes Norm I know that. I know there are some things similar morally in both covenants.Then norm flies over to
    Romans 13:8-9 Where Paul uses both The Law of Moses and The New Covenant to prove a Point.Both covenants say to Love there Neighbors as Them self. here is where the Ignorance of Norm shines through folks. Norm can’t tell the difference between A JEWISH Old Covenant Neighbor, and A Christian New Covenant Neighbor.Read
    James 2:10-12 here James is using The Law of Moses to Prove a New Covenant Point.James sais if Jews broke one of the Old Covenant commands they were guilty of all, then in Verse 12 Read it NORM those of us Who will be Judged by The NEW COVENANT PERFECT LAW of LIBERTY, not the Law of Moses.James 1:25 Acts 2:42 Hello Norm Wake up.Our traditionalized Brethren in a Thousand Light Years will Never get this right ever.there is a BIG DIFFERENCE In Loving a Jewish Neighbor as Your self like Jesus commanded Israel in Mathew-John before The Cross.Read this Norm let it get through that Head of Yours what I have been saying all along here.
    Mathew 22:36-40 teacher what is The Great Command in The LAW, not The Perfect Law of Liberty Norm, but The Law of Moses. Thus to Love Your Neighbor as Your self You would do What the Covenant You were under said to do, thus Norm WHATEVER THE LAW SAIS IT SAIS TO THOSE UNDER THE LAW. Romans 3:19-21 Can’t be any Plainer Dr. Traditionalist.Thus Norm the two Clear Different Righteousness Explained in Romans 10:1-6 Hello Norm.

    Now watch how norm once again Perverts the real truth of Gods word. he tries to wiggle His way out of John 7:16
    Verses 2 John 9-11 with John 16:15 You call Yourself a Gospel preacher Norm, but Your ignorance is Clearly shinning through here once again.Norm for the life of Him cannot figure out about short range prophesies. Here Jesus telling these Old Covenant Jews in Verse 12 I Have Many Things To say To You, But You cannot bear them Now. Hello Norm Jesus has not as of Yet Revealed Any of His New Testament Doctrine. John 7:16 Verse 13 But when The Spirit Comes He will not speak of His Own Initiative, but will Disclose what is to Come. Hello Norm Read it WHAT IS TO COME. Hello Norm The New Covenant Doctrine Of Jesus Christ Mathew 28:18 Hello Norm All Authority Given To Jesus After, Not before The Cross.Acts 1:1-3 Jesus spoke with Authority Teaching The Law Of Moses before The Cross Norm, but Now After The Cross All New Covenant Teaching Authority Belongs To Jesus.John7:16 Verses 2 John 9-11. Your Flunking The Covenants Big Time Norm. Jeremiah 31:31-34 Hebrews 8:8-13 Wake Up Norm.

    Mickey

    • PreacherNorm says:

      Just to make sure I have this right, you are saying that if I teach Christians to do what Jesus, the Christ, said in Matthew 18:15-17 then I am teaching false doctrine? So, Christian are not supposed to do what Christ said to do? Really!

      I asked you for an example of something I teach from the Gospels that IS NOT New Testament doctrine and this is what you come up with? Mickey, we both know that Matthew 18:15-17 isn’t what you have a problem with. At any rate, I’ve answered you on that one so can you give me another example? I really think that between me, Mark and Vince, enough has been said to show that you and Daniel, and anyone else teaching your crazy idea, are completely false. Your arguments come across as irrational and unhinged from reality. If you can give a specific example and make your case then do it. Otherwise, I think we are just spinning our wheels and waisting time.

  5. I have never seen such a Blind Gospel Preacher in My life Norm

    The truth presented Right in Your traditional face and You cannot even see it.

    Give Norm an example, well what good would it do to show a COVENANT BLIND Man the truth?

    Ok Blind Man here we go.Mathew 18:17 is The Law, and The Old Testament Church Acts 7:37-38 Mathew 5:17-18 Mathew 7:12You know the very Thing JESUS said He was teaching.Romans 3:19-21 (WHATEVER ) Means Everything taught in the Law blind Man.Verse 21 But(APART FROM THE LAW) You know Norm seperate Apart From. The New Covenant Righteousness Of God Has Been Made Manifest.Jesus Ended That Old Law Of Moses Norm You know the one He taught before The Cross. Colossians 2:14 Romans 7:4 Romans 10:4. It is a DEAD COVENANT NORM. No longer in Force Norm. A Covenant You and I were never a Part of Norm. John 4:22 Ephesians 2:11-12.How can One be justified by a DEAD COVENANT Norm, One You and I were never a Part Of Norm. Romans 3:19-21 Romans 10:1-6? How can You abide in two different Doctrines or Covenants Simultaneously Norm?
    John 7:16 2 John 9-11
    Check Mate Your damnable Heresy has been exposed. You are a false teacher. You teach damnable heresies that CLEARLY Contradict the scriptures. you are truly a blind Man and to be pitted Norm. I truly feel sorry for you, because You can’t fix IGNORANCE.

    Mickey

  6. You are FALLEN From GRACE NORM. GALATIANS 5:4

    • PreacherNorm says:

      Did I mention irrational and unhinged?

      • Daniel Ross says:

        My Dear Brethren in Christ, I am making a full statement and apologizing to All my Brethren for my error and Mistake I made while following Dan Billingsly. First one is Norm Fields Norm, I am deeply sorry for my statement to you, I ask you to forgive me for my false doctrine, I ask that you would pray for me and my family during this time of sorrow for my actions. to Howard Denham as I to was harsh to you, I ask for your forgiveness and ask you to pray for me and my family as well. I would also like to ask Ivy Conner for his forgiveness and ask that he also prays for me and my family. Bobby D. Gayton I ask for your forgiveness for my false doctrine and ask that you pray for me and my family. if I missed anyone Please forgive me, as there was so many. I was a student of Dan Billingsly for 5 years, he twisted and turn God’s word into his own destruction and I was a sucker to follow his lies, this man is evil, mean and racist. he threaten me, he’s planing on doing something to me and my family, which would be his mistake. I want to make this clear, I was Blind, but now I see.. Norm, truly I am very sorry to you Brother, Satan is fast at work, and We need to stop this falsehood NOW! Love you Brother Norm..

        • PreacherNorm says:

          Daniel,

          I really appreciate your honesty and integrity in making this public statement of repentance. It is not easy to publicly admit that you were involved in error and to seek forgiveness. That’s why repentance is called the hardest command by many. As for me, all is forgiven and I rejoice over your repentance of this error. We know that our God is faithful to forgive those who come to Him with a pure heart of repentance seeking His forgiveness (1Jn. 1:9). May God bless you in your service to Him!

          • Danny Ross says:

            Thank you Brother Norm. I also want to make a statement on youtube, if you would allow me to make it on your channel. I need to tell all our brethren how dangereous this Dan Billingsly doctrine is and how simple minds can land them in Hell. it will be powerful and truthful! God Bless you Norm..

        • Daniel Ross says:

          dear Brethren, the reason I sent Norm the message about Dan Billingsly is because I was very angry with him, but this by know means mean I don’t Rightly Divide the covenants. Acts 2 through Revelation 22 is ALL new Testament. I will also state, Mickey and I preached using harsh words, though we stand by the Doctrine of Christ Acts 2:42 we are sorry for the choice of words we used. Dan did not come up with Acts 2 through Revelation 22, Jesus and His Apostiles did. Thank you.

  7. I asked you for an example of something I teach from the Gospels that IS NOT New Testament doctrine bingo norm! Christians are not to preach something that does not having anything to do with them, Norm, Find the word “Christian” before the cross? Find us of Jesus Making a Christian, and Preaching the Death, Burial and Resurrection Before the cross? YOU CAN’T! The 4 Gospel of MMLJBC Is all old testament Norm, I Use “MMLJBC” Its easier and it has nothing to do with Dan Billingsly. You are teaching Gospel’s from Israel to the Jews ONLY, you are binding that Gospel on Christians, Paul says NO NO NO! Gal 5:4 and yet, you still do not listen.

    I have explain to you Norm, we are to Preach Christ Crucified ” But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness” 1 Cor 1:23 That’s for Jews AND GENTILES! Norm I have asked you many time, show me the apostles preaching Christ teachings, from before the cross? you can’t! You Twist and turn them to your own liking.. Norm if that “Title Page” of The roman catholic church is ok, than why don’t you preach and worship Easter? Acts 12:4 Ohhh Nooo, Norm, that’s a Passover huh? Duhhhhh Norm, come on man, I am getting Gray hair sitting here telling you about what Gospel not to preach… I hope you post this Norm.. Thanks..

    • PreacherNorm says:

      Daniel Ross has withdrawn from this discussion. Once I respond to his last comment you will not see any further posts from him relating to this topic.

      Christians were not called Christians until Acts 11:26. So, were the disciples not Christians from Acts 2:41 to Acts 11:25? When Jesus commanded the disciples to make disciples of all nations(Matt. 28:19), was He not telling them to make Christians?

      I’m not real sure how your statement about the word Christian not being found before the Cross has anything to do with me asking for an example of something I teach from the Gospels that IS NOT New Testament doctrine. The word Christian was not applied to the disciples for about ten years after the establishment of the church in Acts 2. So, is it wrong to refer to those disciples from Acts 2:41 on as Christians? And, you have never heard me refer to any disciples prior to Acts 2:41 as Christians. So what is your point about the word Christians? Well, you can’t answer because you have withdrawn from the discussion and I won’t post any more of your comments on the issue.

      Daniel says that Jesus never taught about the death, burial and resurrection prior to the Cross. I know Mark has already proven that point wrong. I’ll do again here, just to make sure you get it. Let’s see if you will repent for purposely twisting the Scriptures.

      From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day. (Matthew 16:21, NKJV)

      Here are more for you to look up: Mark 8:31; Luke 9:22; John 2:19-22; Matthew 17:22-23

      I asked before if the Headship and Ownership of the church was New Testament doctrine (Matthew 16:18-19). Yes or No? You didn’t answer and you won’t answer because you have withdrawn from the discussion. I would like to be able to say that you withdrew because you realized that you were teaching false doctrine and have repented. Sadly, that is not the case. Maybe Mickey will answer that question.

      I have repeatedly asked for an example of something I teach from the Gospels that IS NOT New Testament doctrine. So far I have gotten Matthew 18:15-17, which I answered, and this straw man about Christians before the cross, which I never said, and there being no teaching about the death, burial and resurrection before the Cross, which I have answered.

      Daniel is done because he says if I can’t see what he’s saying then I must have been dropped on my head as a child, brainwashed by aliens or that I’m blinded by Satan. I think there is a fourth possibility that Daniel just doesn’t want to admit, i.e. I proved that he is a false teacher and he won’t repent.

      Mickey, are you done or do you still think that you are representing the truth of God’s word? I think it is vey clear to all every clear headed reader that you have grossly misrepresented the Scriptures and need to repent.

  8. No You didn’t Norm, because You don’t have to it Shows HA HA.You cannot refute My covenant answers to You and You know it so like all false teaching heresy loving traditionalist such as Your self You play the ignorant game trying to make it look like You actually know what you talking about We both know You don’t, but hope fully You will wake up from Your satanic dream and actually teach Gods word by the Covenants like your commanded to do.2 Timothy 2:15.

    Here is a Passage I can help You with Blind Man
    2 Timothy 3:16-17 Here is Your goofy Approach to This passage since You know Nothing of Rightly Dividing By The Covenants. I bet ol Norm thinks Paul Means All Scriptures From Genesis to Revelation. WRONG Norm all New Testament Scriptures. Why Norm well I Rightly Divided The Word like God sais to And Come up with The OBVIOUS Answer Norm.All Old Testament Scripture Is NOT PROFITABLE For Our DOCTRINE or Our Righteousness Norm.Romans 3:19-21 Romans 10:1-6 Galatians 5:4 John 7:16 Verses 2 John 9-11.Who knows maybe in another life time Norm and His three Ome-Goes will figure this stuff out,NA. HA HA

  9. Oh Norm where is My last post ol Chap?

    • PreacherNorm says:

      I’m not sure what post you’re talking about. If it had anything to do with this discussion than it should be posted. If you posted it using the “Reply” button under another comment then it will be under that comment.

  10. Mark Mark Mark

    You love playing the the Norm Fields universal doctrine heresy.

    John 7:16 You calling Jesus a liar???? You can’t for the life of Your soul understand the Jews were Astonished at Jesus Authority To teach God The Fathers Doctrine He came to do Silly.John 4:34 Also Mr. Mark Jesus Was lead By the Spirit before the Cross Mathew 4:1 Now Mr. traditionalized Mark please explain to us how Jesus being lead by the Holy Spirit doing God the Fathers Old Covenant Authoritative Doctrine, is doing His New Testament Doctrine at the same time? John 7:16 Wow Your backed in a corner now Mark, lets see You use the ol heresy universal Norm Fields approach to this one.Remember Mark after the Cross and Jesus resurrection ALL AUTHORITY was given to Jesus as Now This side of the Cross the head of His new Covenant Church. Mathew 28:18 2 John 9-11. Go for it Mark claw Your way out of this mess. Can’t wait to see Your next heresy post. I guarantee it will not line up with the truth, but non the less I just got to see Your traditional Approach.

    Mickey

  11. Folks I have shown CLEARLY the CLEAR evidence Scripturaly To back up everything I have said.

    Norm and His more than Three No-Mee-Goes are way out in left field they need serious Counselling.

    You can’t reach and teach blind Men, but hopefully some folks with a little common sense can see through this stupid heresy they have been Hood winked by satan the corrupt Roman Catholic Church and Norm Field Jumbled Up universal None Sense.You can’t get plainer than these passages period.John 7:16 Verses 2 John 9-11 Mathew 5:17-18 Mathew 7:12 Romans 15:8 King James Version Galatians 4:4-5 Mathew-John before the Cross JEWS ONLY. Mathew 1:21 Mathew 10:5-6 Mathew 15:24
    Acts 2 The Jews First in the New Covenant, then also The Greek or Gentiles Acts 10 This side of The Cross plus Romans 3:19-21 Romans 10:1-6. It just can’t be any plainer than this ever.

    Mathew-John describing Jesus before the Cross is 100 Percent Old Testament.Only for The Jews.

    Mathew 28 Mark 16 Luke 24 John 20-21 Acts 1 Is the time period between the Covenants. No covenant was in Force at this time, and I guarantee You Norm and His over three No-Mee-Goes do not Comprehend this time period teaching there Baloney.They will never figure this time frame out at all. No Covenant no salvation. The Law is Ended Romans 7:4 The New Covenant has not begun yet, and Peter does not have the keys to this New Covenant Kingdom as of yet. Acts 1:1-3 Jesus teaching all HIS NEW TESTAMENT DOCTRINE here, Not before the Cross as the more than Three-No-Mee-goes falsely teach.If they can get those false blinders off there satanic traditionalized heads they might see the light of day here, but We know that ain’t gonna happen.

    Mickey

  12. I bet You if I put Norm Mark and the other Omee-goes to the test and ask them if a Christian stayed in the New Covenant
    Acts 2-Revelation 22 that the New Covenant would not be enough to save us Right slick Boys? Go ahead answer this one Slick Boys, is the New Covenant enough to save us? Acts 2-Revelation 22. Go 4 it Boys.

    Mickey

  13. PreacherNorm says:

    Both people in this discussion who have denied the New Testament authority of Jesus Christ in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, have both claimed that Jesus never taught anything about the death, burial and resurrection prior to Acts 2. They have been shown false numerous times. Yet, they still refuse to repent of their twisting Scripture. At the very least they should both be honest enough to admit that they misspoke on that point. If a person is not going to be honest in their examination of Scripture than there is really no reason to continue any attempts to have honest discussions with them. You can’t have honest discussions with dishonest people.

    In the face of the passages that we have already give to disprove their ridiculous claims, I am calling on both Daniel and Mickey to repent of the false claim that Jesus never taught anything about the death, burial and resurrection prior to the Cross. It is simply not true.

    “No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” (John 3:13–17, NKJV)

    “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” This He said, signifying by what death He would die.” (John 12:32–33, NKJV)

    “Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.” (John 8:28, NKJV)


    “From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.”
    (Matthew 16:21, NKJV)

    Mickey and Daniel, how many more do you need before you will repent and stop twisting the Scriptures?

  14. Once again Norm shows His CLEAR IGNORANCE of Scriptures.

    This is typical of traditional heretic teaching People. Notice Norm falsified what I CLEARLY STATED. I said Clearly Norm Jesus did NOT PREACH HIS DEATH, BURIAL, And RESURRECTION before the Cross.Do You have any common sense to tell the difference between Prophesying about near future events and actually Preaching about it after it happens? Nope You sure don’t by Your Foolish last reply.

    Norm explain to us how Jesus is Preaching His Death, Burial, and Resurrection in Mathew-John before the Cross when He has not died yet? Can’t wait to see Norms heretical reply to this question. The Apostles Preached Christ Crucified after the events happened silly Acts 2-Revelation 22. Watch how ridiculously off the beaten tracks ol Norm and His traditional bunch really are.Jeremiah 31:31-34 According to Norms Knuckle Head approach to future events Jeremiah is Preaching New Testament here Right Norm Compare Hebrews 8:8-13.Before the event happens according to traditionalism You preach about the events even before they happen, because there is no such thing as short and Long range Prophesies Right Norm.

    These silly traditionalist trying to grasp for Straws to make them selves look like they know what they are talking about blows up in there face when debating folks who really know what it means to rightly divide Gods Word by the covenants. 2 Tim 2:15. Keep grasping for straws Norm because no matter how hard You try Your HERESY will be EXPOSED

    Notice Norm did not answer My simple question to Him. Norm if a Christian abides in the New Covenant Only, You know the one We are under today is that enough to save us Acts 2-Revelation 22. Acts 2:42 2 John 9-11 Verses John 7:16? Come on Norm answer this simple question.

    Mickey

    • PreacherNorm says:

      Mickey says that Jesus was prophesying about His death, burial and resurrection before it happend. Well, that is very clear because Jesus hadn’t died yet. But does that mean that he wasn’t teaching them the New Testament doctrine of the death, burial and resurrection? The text very clearly says that Jesus began to show them, deiknuo them, about His death burial and resurrection.

      deiknuo – to explain the meaning or significance of something by demonstration—‘to show, to explain, to make clear.’
      (Louw & Nida: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament).

      Jesus wasn’t simply prophesying about His death, burial and resurrection, He was teaching them about it. He was explaining it and making it clear to them. It was clear enough that Peter said he would not allow it to happen and Jesus called him Satan (Matt. 16:23). He made it clear that His death, burial and resurrection was according to the will of God!

      Mickey asked if I believe a person can be saved by abiding in the New Covenant only. Of course I do! What I do not believe is that a person can reject what Jesus taught in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and still say they are abiding in the New Covenant. No, they are rejecting the teaching of the very one they claim to follow! What kind of insanity would have one say, “I am a Christian,” but then reject the books that record Christ’s coming, living, teaching, dying and being raised for the salvation of man?

      How can I claim to be Christlike if I reject the Life of Christ as my pattern, my doctrine, my instruction? Insanity!

      John said the very reason for his Gospel record was so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.. But Mickey wants to say, Nope, that was just for the Jews?

      How can I follow Christ (1 Cor. 11:1), without the example of Christ? Is His example of obedience not New Testament doctrine? (Heb. 5:8-9). Is His example of servitude not New Testament doctrine? (Matt. 20:28; Jn. 13:15). Do the Beatitudes (Matt. 5:3-12) not describe the New Testament lifestyle? Is Jesus’ example of suffering for righteousness sake not New Testament doctrine? (1 Pet. 2:21).

      How can I walk in the light as He is in the light (1 Jn. 1:7) without the example of how He walked? (cf. 1 Jn. 2:6).

      So, if Mickey is asking me if I think a person can be a faithful Christian who rejects the teaching of Jesus in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; then the answer would be, NO, certainly not!

      I have asked Mickey several times to give me an example of something I teach from the Gospels that IS NOT New Testament doctrine. What did Jesus teach that, if I follow it, would cause me to contradict anything else the New Testament teaches? I want Mickey to be specific and not just give a bunch of verses that say the Law is done away with. We both agree, Mickey and I, that people are not under the Old Testament today and that is not the point of this discussion. Mickey keeps giving verses that say the Old Testament is done away with that have nothing at all to do with what we’re talking about. I want to see specifically where Jesus taught something that I cannot follow as a New Testament Christian. If Mickey can’t do that then I plead with him to stop this insanity and repent!

  15. Again Norms Shows His Complete Ignorance Of The Covenants.

    Norm needs Kindergarten Proof of His Damnable Heresy. Ok Norm Here We go to Your level. Jesus sais He is teaching only the Law of Moses Mathew 5:17-18 Mathew 7:12, but You just cannot except that fact can You now? You got to have Your traditional Heresy even if it Means the Gates of Hell.Here goes Your proof Mr. Mathew 5:3-4 Poor In Spirit and Those that Morn.Numbers 20:29 Psalms 34:4-7
    Mathew 5:6 Those in Israel Who Hunger And Thirst For Old Covenant Righteousness.Psalms 37:25-28 Proverbs 21:21 Mathew 5:5 Psalms 37:11 Mathew 5:7 Micah 6:8 Mathew 5:8 Psalms 24:4 Mathew 5:9 Psalms 34:12-15
    Mathew 5:10 Old Covenant Righteousness.Those Being (JEWS) Only in Israel. Romans 3:19-21 Romans 10:1-6 Galatians 4:4-5 Romans 15:8 Is that Kindergarten Enough for You Norm? We Have Jesus Born Under The Law. Galatians 4:4-6 As A Minister Of The Circumcision Romans 15:8 King James Version Redeeming (SAVING) Those Jews Only Under The Law.Mathew 1:21 Mathew 10:5-6 Mathew 15:24 Teaching The Sermon on that Mountain of Old Covenant Righteousness to Those Still Under The Law, and Good Ol Hopeless teaching traditionalized Norm sais this is New Testament Doctrine, and That Jesus Words in John 6:38 And John 7:16 Don’t Mean Exactly What They say, because These books were written in the New Testament age for Christians Although Jesus sais these books are for Jews Only dealing with Old Covenant Righteousness,And that You either Live By The Old Covenant Righteousness or The New Covenant Righteousness. Romans 10:16, But Norm being IGNORANT of Gods New Covenant Righteousness and trying to Establish his own warped Version is Guilty just like Those former Old Covenant Jews of Making up His Universal Doctrine and Stands Condemned by God of teaching this Ridiculous Damnable heresy. You got Your proof Blind Man You stand Condemned By God so how do You Plead? John 6:38 John 7:16 Verses 2 john 9-11 Verses Acts 2:42 Verses Galatians 1:6-9 Verses Ephesians 3:3-5 Which No New Testament Was revealed In Other Ages. Mathew-John describing Jesus before The Cross is Another age. Thus Jesus Prophesy of His death, burial, and Resurrection was a Mystery To Israel before the Cross is Why Peter try to stop it Mr. Norm.

    Folks Acts 2-Revelation 22 is The COMPLETE NEW TESTAMENT of JESUS. Acts 1:1-3 You cannot Fudge on this .

    Mickey

    • PreacherNorm says:

      Alright Mickey, I’m going to give you the last word (see above) and call this discussion done.

      I’m going to leave the comments open to others to give their input but as far as the debate between Mickey and Norm, its done. I think all the necessary information the reader needs to draw an educated conclusion is out there so I will leave it at that. I may write another article summarizing the discussion for ease of reading. I’m looking forward to getting the feedback of the readers on what they think of the discussion.

      Thanks,
      Norm

      • Hey Norm, what do you consider “the gospel of the kingdom” in Matt.4:23 that Jesus preached?

        • PreacherNorm says:

          David, great question!

          The verse says that Jesus preached “the gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 4:23). That exact term is used three times in Matthew. The first is the one you referred to in Matt. 4:23. The second is in Matt. 9:35, where it says almost the exact same thing. The third reference is really important to what “the gospel of the kingdom” means. It is in Matt. 24:14, where Jesus is telling the disciples about the coming destruction of Temple in AD 70. He says, before that destruction would happen, “this gospel of the kingdom” would be preached throughout the whole world.

          It says in Matt. 4:17 that Jesus preached “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matt. 10:7 says that Jesus instruction the disciples to preach “the kingdom of heaven is at hand” in their limited commission. The fact that it says “this gospel of the kingdom” would continue being preached by the disciples after the departure of Christ and would spread to the entire world (Matt. 24:14), shows that when they were preaching the gospel of the kingdom while it was still “at hand” (i.e. coming soon) they were teaching things that would be part of that new kingdom to come (Matt. 6:10).

          Paul says what it was that was preached throughout the whole world, as Jesus said the “gospel of the kingdom” would be preached to every nation (Matt. 24:14).

          “if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.” (Colossians 1:23, NKJV)

          He had already made mention of the gospel having been preached to the whole world in Col. 1:6.

          “We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; as you also learned from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf, who also declared to us your love in the Spirit.” (Colossians 1:3–8, NKJV)

          So, “the gospel of the kingdom”

          • Was preached by Jesus and the disciples (Matt. 4:23; 9:35).
          • Would be preached to the whole world prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 (Matt. 24:14).
          • Was the same gospel preached by Paul, and others, to the Colossians and the whole world (Col. 1:6, 23).

          Thanks again for the great question.

          • Hey Norm, David again. Another question. Is the worship Jesus outlined in John 4:21-24 for those under the Old Covenant or New Covenant?

          • PreacherNorm says:

            David, another great question.

            What Jesus said to the woman at the well in John 4:21-24 is a good example of what I referred to earlier as a universal principle. Joshua said almost the exact same thing in Josh. 24:14. God has always, regardless of dispensation, required His people to have the right heart of devotion and commitment to Him – sincerity in Josh. 24:14 and spirit in Jn. 4:23. Not only is sincerity important, but God has also always, regardless of dispensation, required His people to function according to the truth of His word (cf. Josh. 24:14; Jn. 4:23; Jn. 17:17; Isa. 29:13; Matt. 15:8). Serving God with the right heart of love and devotion according to the truth of His word is a universal principle, meaning there has never been a time when spirit and truth were not essential elements of godliness. So, certainly, spirit and truth is New Testament doctrine for the faithful living of godly people today.

            Jesus even says that he is talking specifically about when people would worship God in the church (Jn. 4:21). The time was coming very soon when the geographical location of a person’s worship would not matter. So He is obviously teaching something about the worship of the New Testament church, i.e. New Testament doctrine.

            “For we [Christians] are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,” (Philippians 3:3, NKJV)

  16. Brian McCord says:

    Wow. I’ll have to admit that I had a very hard time reading Mickey and Daniel’s comments. They were quite incoherent.

    I think that so many people, when debating, have a problem understanding that they can’t use the Scripture that is under debate to prove their point during the debate. For instance, Norm asked “Where does the Old Testament teach baptism for the remission of sins.” Mickey responded by quoting something out of the gospels (the Scripture that is under debate). I can’t remember which verse he quoted (and I don’t want to try to wade back through all of this to find it).

    Mickey, for people who don’t believe as you do, it does no good to quote the Scripture that is under debate. You must find Scripture outside the Scripture under debate to prove your point.

    Example: I was once debating a Messianic. He affirmed that Paul was a false apostle and that all Paul wrote, as well as the book of Hebrews, was false doctrine. I made a denial of this.

    It would have done me no good to go to Hebrews or the writings of Paul to prove that Paul was a valid apostle. HE DOESN’T BELIEVE WHAT PAUL WROTE. Instead I had to go to Acts to show that Paul’s conversion was valid. I had to go to Peter who called Paul a beloved brother. In other words, I can’t use Paul to prove Paul. Paul needed a witness besides himself (and of course, the greatest witness for Paul is Christ).

    Mickey and Daniel: If you are going to debate in the future, please practice your written communication skills. Slow down. Make logical arguments, not manifesto style ramblings. That will not bring the truth out.

    Norm: Thank you for all you do to enlighten, encourage, and educate people who are searching for the truth.

    Thanks,
    Brian

    • PreacherNorm says:

      Brian, thanks for your comment.

    • Daniel Ross says:

      Brian, I hope you get this, Norm was right all along, and I was in error.. I am truly sorry for my dumb self of following Dan Billingsly for 5 years, so I hope you forgive me as well. Norm, would you take my dumb statements down and just use mickey’s? I feel so sick for my dumb actions, I can’t bare to see my oldself anymore.. Thanks.

      • Daniel,

        I, like Norm, am very happy with your comments recently. Thank you for your honesty. It takes a lot of courage to admit your mistakes. I pray that God blesses you for your honesty and apology.

        Brian

  17. Norm i ask but now i can’t find i….But anyway i was going to ask you if today we can say the Lord’s prayer????? thank you Norm

    • PreacherNorm says:

      I’m sure that you’re referring to the prayer Jesus taught the disciples in Matthew 6:9-13. Possibly, you are specifically referring to praying, “Your kingdom come.” We understand that Jesus was teaching this prayer to His disciples prior to the establishment of the church. The specific thing they were told to pray for came in their lifetime, on the day of Pentecost, in Acts 2. However, we can still use that principle of praying for the kingdom of God – the church – and continue to pray for the growth and fruitfulness of the church. We wouldn’t pray for something to come that had already come, but we certainly would pray for its growth. Jesus taught His disciples principles for them to use in their prayers. He was not teaching them a rote prayer, as many denominations use it today. We can still pray according to those principles as they apply to our time.

  18. I have a question in Mt 19:16 when the rich young ruler asked Jesus what must he do to be saved or have eternal life , why didn`t Jesus tell him to HEAR,BELIEVED,CONFESS,REPENT and be Baptized instead he talked about the commandments of the LAW of MOSES.Seem to me if the NEW LAW was in effect at this time in Matthew he would have talked about the DEATH BURIAL and RESSURECTION instead of the LAW of MOSES. Why didn`t Jesus tell him to obey the GOSPEL?

  19. Mickey Skidmore says:

    Hi Norm why are You sending Me this old discussion again? Do You want to have at it once again? If so I would love to show why Mathew-John describing Jesus before the Cross is old testament doctrine. Let Me say one thing if this be the case. After our last discussion I went back and read what I said to You, and I want to apologize for the way I said things to You. I do not apologize for My stand on the truth, but the way I said things to You. If this is the case lets have a more civilized discussion on this issue.

    • PreacherNorm says:

      No, Mickey, I have no desire to reopen this issue with you. I don’t think there is anything that needs to be said. The Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John), record the life of Christ and His preparatory teaching for the establishment of the church in Acts 2. Yes, Jesus lived and died under Judaism. However, just as Moses was still living in the Patriarchal age until he gave the Law to the children of Israel, Jesus was the new Lawgiver (Deut. 18:17-19). He was teaching His new law, the law of Christ (Gal. 6:2). You still cannot differentiate between the setting of the Gospels and the purpose of the Gospels. The setting is Christ preparing for the establishment of His church, the purpose is to produce faith in Christ to make Christians (cf. Jn. 20:30-31). How can you claim that books written by Christians, for the purpose of producing Christians, are Old Testament books? That is absolutely absurd! So, no, I do not wish to have further discussion on this topic. The reason you got an email about it is because someone posted a new comment and you have subscribed to the comments. I’ll let this post serve as a reply that comment also.

      • Mickey Skidmore says:

        Well let Me say this Norm Jesus sure did not give new testament doctrine under the law of Moses. Mathew 5:17-18 Mathew 7:12. As a minister of the circumcision to the Jews only to save only the Jews. Romans 15:8 King James version. Galatians 4:4-5 Mathew 1:21 Mathew 10:5-6 Mathew 15:24. The gospel Jesus taught before the Cross was the old testament kingdom of Israel only gospel. Mathew 4:23 Mathew 21:43. There is no new testament kingdom before the Cross, so how do You get a new testament kingdom gospel with no new testament kingdom? How could Jesus be teaching His new testament doctrine in another age when it was still a mystery to the Jews ?Ephesians 3:3-5 How could He teach His new testament doctrine before the Cross when He had many more things to teach the Jews and they could not bare to hear them before the Cross, because they knew nothing about new testament doctrine? John 16:12-15 How could Jesus give His new testament doctrine before the Cross not doing His new testament will or teaching His new testament doctrine? John 6:38 John 7:16 How could Jesus be teaching new testament doctrine under the law of Moses when after the Law of Moses was nailed to the Cross at His death, and after His resurrection He received all authority to teach all His new testament doctrine? Colossians 2:14 Romans 7:4 Romans 10:4 Mathew 28:18-20 Acts 1:3 What was Jesus doing in that 40 day time period between the covenants in Acts 1:3 according to John 16:12-15 You really need to think over You stance.

        • PreacherNorm says:

          Will you write, if you haven’t already, your last will and testament before or after you die? Will it go into force before or after you die? I’m closing the comments on this post. I really think enough has been said on it.

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